Forgotten Judo Techniques
TheBest (12/22/99 12:17:29 pm) Where can I find books, tapes of Original Judo techniques that are now not taught or are banned. I heard there are a load of Atemi-Waza,banned throws,leglocks,spine locks,head cranks,throws,knife/gun defenses that aren't taught in todays dojos.
Shootokun (12/22/99 1:55:29 pm) Does anyone know how and when Judo made it over to England? Did Japanese instructors come over here or did someone learn it there and bring it back?
Levo (12/24/99 10:10:47 am) check out 'A-Z of Judo' it has chapters on Leglocks,Spinelocks, Wrist locks etc. Get it from Blitz, amazon.co.uk or http://www.fightingfilms.com/new/main.htm. Also of interest may be a video from Blitz entitled 'Kodokan Judo (from1910)'.
Levo (12/24/99 1:34:27 pm) I remember hearing that when the Japanese came over to demonstrate Judo many people weren't impressed as all-in wrestling was so big here and had just as effective submissions plus the guys were much stronger. I also heard that there were a number of matchs between the two styles with some of the judo players getting badly hurt.
faxia roxa (1/20/00 10:38:06 pm) While these techniques are unfortunately not taught often in sport-focused clubs, they still very much exist in Judo, and at a club which teaches the full art of Judo as opposed to training only for sport, you will be taught these techniques.
I will now address the specific techniques you mentioned: Atemi waza are techniques of striking and kicking the opponent in vital areas. Judo contain a wide area of atemi. Most of the techniques involve punching, striking with the open hand, or kicking, but there are also many techniques which use the elbows, knees, and even the head as striking weapons. WHERE to strike is also a major part of the atemi waza.
Striking in Judo is usually taught as part of a general self defense program; traditional Judo consists of two major sets of techniques: randori waza (free practice/tournament techniques) and goshin waza (self defense techniques). Of course the randori waza are also used in self defense, but the goshin waza are mainly techniques which could not really be applied safely in a free-practice or tournament setting.
Atemi waza are used throughtout the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu (the Kodokan's modern self defense forms) and the Kime no Kata (Forms of Decision, an old style self defense kata based largely on the central form of the old Tenshin Shinyo ryu Jiu Jitsu), and make up the entire Seiryoku Zenyo Taiikumen no Kata (an old physical education form which consists of sets of atemi techniques, altho some modern performances of this form don't really do the techniques justice).
All of Judo's officially recognized forms can be seen in Kano's "Kodokan Judo". Banned throws: There are only a few throwing techniques which are specifically banned in shiai: kawazu gake (grapevining the opponent's leg while facing the same direction and falling back, which can injury the knee), kani basami (crab scissors throw, which can also damage the knee), daki age (high lift, picking up an opponent who has you in his guard (which causes matte) and slamming him back down), and falling backward when an opponent is on you back are the only ones I can think of. The other prohibitions in shiai in shiai are against throwing the opponent to the front (which can cause injury), throwing while applying an arm lock (liable to cause serious injury to the joint before the opponent has a chance to submit), and muscling the opponent down without attempting a definite technique for the purpose opf starting newaza (considered bad technique).
Several of the banned throws can be seen in Syd Hoare's "A-Z of Judo", and most clubs that are not focused just on shiai teach them as well. Throwing with a joint lock in particular is useful for self defense. Judo contains just about any joint lock you can think of. Again, Syd Hoare's book is a good place to see some of these techniques. Also, a large number of the techniques in the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu involve wrist locks, and ashi garami, the entangled leg lock, is the final technique of the Katame no Kata (Forms of Grappling, which demonstrates five osaekomi (hold downs), five shimewaza (chokes), and five kansetsuwaza (joint locks)). On an interesting note, at my club we usually allow straight leg and ankle locks, wrist locks when on the ground, shoulder locks, and carefully applied neck cranks/spine locks (these usually refer to the same thing) in randori, in addition to arm locks and chokes.
As for weapons defenses, there are many in Judo. For instance, the Kime no Kata contains defenses against the knife, sword, and stick, and the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu contains defenses against the knife, stick, and gun. Peronally, I believe Judo's self defense techniques are so of the most powerful in any art because they make extensive use of throws and takedowns, atemi waza, chokes, a variety of joint locks, osaekomi (usually combined with a submission or finishing atemi), and even weapons techniques (such as disarming an attacker carrying and gun and then hitting him with it). If you would like more information, you are welcome to visit the Underworld Judo Q&A and ask me any time.
Mickson (1/20/00 11:41:44 pm) Can you give any more detail on Atemi Waza? What type of strike and to which targets?
faxia roxa (1/21/00 3:09:45 am) The atemi waza is actually very diverse.
The kicking techniques include mainly front, back, and side kicks to the knees, groin, and abdomen (in the Seiryoku Zenyo Taiikumen no Kata there is one front kick that is at head level (altho this is a solo kata), but most kicks are much lower), including some interesting seated front kicks in the Kime no Kata. Also included are knee strikes to the groin or abdomem.
Punching techniques include hooking-type punches (to the head or body), uppercuts (to the chin), straight punches (to the body or head), a thrust punch or two (to the head or body), hammerfist strikes (to the head), and downward closed fist strikes (to the head).
Elbows are not usually Thai-style elbows, but more reverse elbow strikes to the body of an opponent behind you or downward elbow strikes to the body or head of an opponent you are holding down.
Open-handed techniques include palm strikes to the head, fingertip strikes to eyes or throat, and knifehand strikes to the neck or certain points on the head.
This pretty much defines the Kodokan-listed atemi, but of course other atemi techniques have become commonplace in Judo's goshin waza over the years, such as using the front or back of the head to strike the soft tissue of an opponent's face (Kano actually mentions this in "Kodokan Judo") or kicks such as the roundhouse kick, which is usually used to strike the knee or body (specifically the ribcage) and is usually performed in the traditional way, by pulling the toes back and striking with the ball of the foot.
Mickson (1/21/00 8:31:53 am) Faxia Rosa, thanks a lot for your answer, I'm very impressed. Judo is underated. Do you practise also no-Gi grappling?
WT (1/21/00 2:50:34 pm) Reply Re:Do you know anything about Kano using the Daito Ryu Aikijutsu guy Shiro Saigo as his champion against the other Jujutsu styles?
faxia roxa (1/21/00 11:50:54 pm)In the Goshin Jutsu, techniques are taught using grips that do not require a uniform. It is not hard to modify most Judo techniques to work without the gi. At my club, we are taught and expected to know enough about body grips to be able do most techniques if someone walks in of the street and we don't have a gi for him (happens quite frequently) or if Sensei thinks we should do body grips today. This is important for self defense, and I think most clubs practice them, however my club probably more so, because my Sensei, Kelvin Proctor, was also an extremely accomplished wrestler who finished third in the world Greco championships.
As to Saigo, he is a well known name in Judo. I'm not sure if he was consider "champion", but he was one the top men in at the old Kodokan. He was often Kano's sparring partner in randori and his uke in kata. In fact, the hip throws section of the Nage no Kata is symbolic of an old story about Saigo learning to jump over Kano's favorite uki goshi, Kano then learning to counter the jump with harai goshi, Saigo learning to pull back strongly against harai goshi, and finally Kano countering this with tsurikomi goshi. Originally the kata actually reinacted the attack/defense/new attack sequence, but is sadly not usually performed that way anymore. So for sure is one of the key figures in Judo history.
Mickson Global user (1/22/00 9:05:07 am) Thanks faxia rosa. Are your type of club very rare? I think most clubs only teach the sport applications.
WT Global user (1/22/00 2:47:01 pm) I'm interested in the contests that Kodokan had with the other Jujutsu styles.
faxia roxa Local user (1/22/00 7:04:55 pm) I know that there are several clubs that practice the way we do, but yes, they are few and far between. A lot of clubs spend little or no time working on things like atemi and leg locks. For instance, I have been to two clubs.
My previous club, while a very good sport club (and a newaza-oriented one; we spent at least 70% of the time on matwork there), was just that. I was there for a year and a half (before the Sensei had to move), and we never oncve did a self defense situation. We never once were even shown an achilles lock (which is now one of my favorite subs). Don't get me wrong, I am very thankful for everything I learned there, but I never could have dreamed then how much there is in the art of Judo.
WT, there were several matches in the old days. One extremely important one occured about 1905 between the Kodokan and the Fusen ryu. The Fusen ryu was not a koryu school, rather it was created about the same time as Judo. They were the first club to beat the Kodokan since the tournament against the Tokyo police Jiu Jitsuka in the famous tournament that made Judo's reputation. The Kodokan was beaten badly, losing all but one match. Why? The Fusen ryu were the first style of Jiu Jitsu to emphasis a style of ground fighting that looked very similar to wrestling in many respects. They were the pioneers of newaza. Before that time, the Kodokan, like the koryu schools, applied most katame waza (grappling techniques) standing or as a direct followup to a throw. This type of grappling, along with nage waza (throwing), atemi waza, and weapons defense and techniques (Kano was a certified master of, I believe, 12 traditional battlefield weapons, and Jo Jitsu (art of the staff) was taught at the Kodokan until the 1920s) made up the primary syllabus of the original Kodokan. Grappling around on the mat, transitioning between position, fighting for subs, etc. had no place in the old Jiu Jitsu because it was a battlefield art, meant to be a form of empty-handed fighting for when the warrior lost his weapon (usually the katana). But Kano was open-minded and always looking to improve, so after seeing his Kodokan beaten by this newaza, he did the only logical thing: he asked the Fusen ryu masters to train himself and his top men in newaza. The Fusen ryu consented, and newaza became a major part of Judo. Now, the actual katame waza techniques where largely the same ones the Kodokan had always used. Their application to what we today would think of as a "ground fight" were the innovation.
WT Global user (1/22/00 10:22:44 pm)Yes,I have heard of this.Do you know who won his match? I attended a seminar once,a long time ago,where we trained a little in the old kumiuchi grappling.Originally the Kodokan seems to have ben a Kito Ryu school. Have you seen or trained the Koshiki no Kata?
faxia roxa Local user (1/23/00 3:39:29 pm) WT, no, I don't know who it was. Yes I know the Koshiki no Kata somewhat. It is essentially the central form of the Kito ryu with only a very few modifications. And at one time, Kano's Kito ryu Sensei actually did teach along with Kano at the Kodokan. However, Kano's first training was actually in Tenshin Shinyo ryu Jiu Jitsu, and the Kime no Kata is essentially a form constructed by Kano out of several old Tenshin Shinyo forms. The essentially consensus is that the bulk of the Kodokan's throwing techniques were either taken from the Kito ryu or developed from its principles, whereas the bulk of the atemi waza and katame waza were taken from Tenshin Shinyo ryu. Of course, a lot of other schools contributed, especially to the modern Kodokan Goshin Jutsu, which was formulated in the 50s by 51 Judo and Jiu Jitsu masters including Tomiki who was the group's "leader" and also an Aikido master. And the newaza applications of katame waza originally came from the Fusen ryu. But in the beginning, the Kodokan was really a reasonably pure cross between Tenshin Shinyo ryu and Kito ryu.
Other Combat Sport Links:
INDEX:
The History of Judo by M.Tripp